From notes@igc5.igc.apc.org Mon Dec 11 10:42:34 1995
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Date: 11 Dec 1995 06:46:25
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat" 
From: wilsong@sergievsky.cpmc.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: Anti-war activists oppose U.S. troops to the Balkans
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From: "Gary Wilson" 
Subject: Re: Anti-war activists oppose U.S. troops to the Balkans

> Don't dump on poor Ivo; it was I who reposted his reponse to you.
> (We often do our Balkans work out of the same account, .) 
> And not to the entire internet, either, but just to activ-l & 
> misc.activism.prog, where your original post also went, but which 
> Ivo hasn't time to read.
>  
> Since your post went to AML and MAP, whose readers don't in
> general get anything responsive to WW antiimperialist analyses in
> regard to the Balkans, I thought it fair enough to crosspost
> Ivo's comments there. 
>

Well, thanks for the explanation. But since it was posted to places 
where the original piece that Ivo was responding to had never been 
posted, it would have been appropriate to include the original 
article and then the response. (if your only purpose was to engage in 
a dialog) 

> AML etc would seem a logical place for WW calls to action; but I think 
> that zamir-chat-l would be a place where it might be better to listen 
> to some voices from South Slavia, as a reality-check on the WW postion. 
> Just a suggestion.

You may not agree with WW's position, but that doesn't mean that 
"voices from South Slavia" can't be found in Workers World. 
Zamir-chat-l isn't the only forum, though it is an important one. 
That's why I thought you would be interested in seeing what Workers 
World had to say. We all reality checks. I wouldn't suggest that you 
read what Workers World was writing 5 years ago if I didn't believe 
that it holds up to a reality check.

> 
> -- Ed Agro, facilitator, peacenet Balkans conferences
> 
> 
From notes@igc5.igc.apc.org Mon Dec 11 11:22:19 1995
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Date: 11 Dec 1995 07:19:38
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat" 
From: wilsong@sergievsky.cpmc.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: Anti-war activists oppose U.S. troops to the Balkans
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l 
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From: "Gary Wilson" 
Subject: Re: Anti-war activists oppose U.S. troops to the Balkans

> Your original article maybe did not mention the name "Slobodan 
> Milosevic", but it did say that Serbia Defends Socialism, and Serbia 
> is an autocratic state ruled by Slobodan Milosevic, so your sentence 
> implies Milosevic as a defender of socialism.

There remains a difference between the state and the political 
leaders of that state, as I'm sure you must know. Right now I'm told 
Milosevic is carrying out a purge of  the left in the Serbian 
Socialist Party, those who oppose privatization and turning control 
of the economy to the IMF and World Bank (not that the Western banks 
don't already control much there). It looks like it's part of the 
deal with Washington for the lifting of sanctions.

The subhead you quote--"Serbia defends socialism"--was only a 
subhead. The body of the article, I believe, was more precise in what 
it said. There remains a socialist sector to the economy in Serbia--
workers are still paid and get full benefits, even with the severe 
sanctions imposed on Serbia. There's no reason to abandon what 
remains of socialism just because there are so many other problems 
with the Milosevic government.

> 
> And I read your previous analysis on Yugoslavia (I responded to some 
> of them, too). There were good points in them. Though they were always 
> Serbian side biased. And what was more unsettling they were less 

If they seemed Serbian-sided, it's only because the Serbs have been 
demonized in the U.S. media. And it's necessary to show that the 
Serbian people are not the source of the problem.

> targeting the Balkans problem than the American foreign policy. That 
> makes WW similar to American Administrations: actiona are done not 
> because of genuine external reason for which they were claimed to be 
> done, but because of internal political reasons. Clinton will send 
> troops in Bosnia not to save Bosnia but to make himslef look good 
> before the next years elections, and Workers World will attack 
[snip]

Well, since we are based in the U.S. it seems to me most appropriate 
that we focus on the policies of the administration in Washington. 

> Good luck in 1996 elections.
> 
> ivo
> 

Gary
From notes@igc5.igc.apc.org Mon Dec 11 11:23:32 1995
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Date: 11 Dec 1995 07:22:23
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat" 
From: kajosevi@newschool.edu
Subject: Women in Black on Dayton agrmt -Forwarded
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From: INDIRA KAJOSEVIC 
Subject:  Women in Black on Dayton agrmt -Forwarded

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From: peacenews@gn.apc.org (Peace News)
Path: bionic.zerberus.de!zamir-bg.ztn.apc.org
Subject: Women in Black on Dayton agrmt
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 17:46:00 +0200
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## Nachricht vom 03.12.95 weitergeleitet
## Ursprung : /APC/YUGO/ANTIWAR
## Ersteller: peacenews@gn.apc.org

Statement from Women in Black Belgrade, 22 November 1995
-- forwarded by Peace News London
 
Due to the pressure of the US administration, presidents 
Milosevic, Tudjman, and Izetbegovic, responsible for war and 
enormous suffering throughout Yugoslavia, signed the peace 
agreement concerning Bosnia-Hercegovina. The cessation of 
murder, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, rape, and mass torture 
of civilians should make us all happy, regardless of who has 
signed it and under what pressure they have signed.
 
The peace group Women in Black from Belgrade does not want 
to get caught up in the flow of euphoria which is being 
emitted from the centres of power, nor to forget all that 
has been happening for the past few years. Therefore, we 
repeat that we will accept this peace only as a warning.
 
We warn and remind the citizens of Serbia that the war has 
been going on for four years already, and the atmosphere 
which created it, much longer. We recall endless sessions 
and disputes in the official Serbian Communist Party which 
were followed by "spontaneous" gatherings of people who 
overthrew all those who opposed the new policy of Milosevic. 
We remember all the lies, insults, hatred, and manipulation 
promoted on state television and in newspapers. 
Demonstrations asking for revenge, war, and murder. The 
blockade of the Danube. Other things we cannot forget: tanks 
on the streets of Belgrade on 9 March and especially the 
tanks going into Vukovar while people in New Belgrade waved 
at them. Milosevic's statement that if we do not know how to 
work we know how to fight, and all the statements for a 
Greater Serbia even at the price of eating only roots to 
achieve it. Night mobilisations, parades of paramilitary 
terror, fear of youth escaping out of the country -- and 
before all this, cruel death and maiming of thousands of 
people, forced expulsions of millions of others, destroyed 
towns and villages; all of this does not give us to right to 
forget and declare amnesties because we believe in 
individual guilt and responsibility.
 
Responsibility for war surely lies, to a great extent, on 
other warring parties; the policy of the European Union; the 
United States of America; and NATO. By pointing to the 
guilty in Serbia we want to warn the citizens of Serbia that 
the policy of their country, which led to and created the 
war, does not guarantee peace, renewal, and the future. We 
will consider peace to be real in this region only when all 
refugees are allowed to return to their homes and when, in 
all the newly created states, the right to be Other and 
different -- and the right to express this Otherness and 
difference -- is recognised. We believe that the greatest 
richness of the Balkans is the differences, and at the same 
time the similarities, of its people. The process of 
awakening after years of isolation and blindness will be 
long and painful. Opening up to the world, new mutual 
recognition and understanding among the people in the 
Balkans, and building of new values require much bigger 
changes, duties, and responsibilities than a glamorous 
signing of a peace treaty at a US air force base.
 
Therefore, we again appeal to the memory, conscience, and 
responsibility of the citizens of Serbia and others 
elsewhere in the Balkans.
 
Women in Black, Belgrade 22 November 1995
 
 
 
We would like to take this opportunity to inform you of our 
understanding that the war is far from being over, to 
express our dissatisfaction with the peace treaty, and our 
fear for the future of the region with continuation of such 
policies. We continue our street protests and all other 
regular activities.
 
 

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##