|
Incoming Messages from ZTN
|
Updated Every 4 Hours
From notes@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:20:48 1995
Received: from cdp.igc.apc.org (192.82.108.1) by MediaFilter.org
with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:20:48 -0500
Received: (from notes) by cdp.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.204 ) id NAA24745 for "conf-zamir.chat"; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:49:09 -0700
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: Ivo Skoric
Subject: No Subject Given
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
Message-ID:
X-Gateway: conf2mail@igc.apc.org
Errors-To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 85
>From majordomo Sat Aug 26 04:40:00 1995
Received: (from majordomo) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) id EAA28831; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:59 -0700
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:59 -0700
Message-Id: <199508261139.EAA28831@igc3.igc.apc.org>
To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
From: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Subject: BOUNCE zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org: Non-member submission from [Robert Bennett <100440.270@compuserve.com>]
Status: U
>From iskoric@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 04:39:55 1995
Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) with SMTP id EAA28820 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:54 -0700
Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
id HAA16798; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:36:08 -0400
Date: 26 Aug 95 07:35:26 EDT
From: Robert Bennett <100440.270@compuserve.com>
To: PRESIDENT CLINTON
Cc: 01 , 02 ,
03 , 04 ,
05 <74431.3674@compuserve.com>, 06 <71154.1605@compuserve.com>,
07 ,
08 ,
09 , 10 , 11 <5jensen_e@spcvxa.spc.edu>,
12 , 13 ,
14 , 15 ,
16 <131!tim003@dialcom.tymnet.com>, 17 ,
18 , 19 ,
20 , 21 ,
22 ,
23 , 24 ,
25
Subject: Berlin to Sarajevo
Message-ID: <950826113525_100440.270_BHG61-1@CompuServe.COM>
Dear President Clinton:
Any American living in Germany as I do, sometimes cannot help looking
around at this country - free, prosperous, democratic, ruled by law -
and wondering, "What must it have been like here during the Nazi
dictatorship?"
And once we ask that question, another logically follows: "If I had been
alive at that time, and lived in Germany, what would I in fact have
done, how would I in fact have responded to the decrees of the Party, to
the Gestapo, and all the rest?"
We also ask ourselves, "If I had been alive then, would I have ever
struggled for the ideals that I believe in? Would I have even spoken out
for those ideals? Would I have risked anything at all then?"
Obvously no one can respond to that question who did not live here
during the Nazi period. I think anyone can, however, learn something of
a probable answer by doing whatever is possible for those people in
today's world whose existence is threatened by aggression, terror, and
brutality. And all of us can, I believe, learn even more about ourselves
when our actions are met with rage and anger from those who are either
blind to - or who sympathize with - the men committing that aggression,
terror, and brutality today in Bosnia.
A few months ago, after four years of feeling powerless to do anything
about Serb atrocities in the Balkans, I decided to begin sending letters
to you as often as I could about the war, with copies to whomever I
thought might be interested. I had no idea of the reaction I would
provoke.
Much of it has been favorable and supportive, of course, coming from a
variety of individuals, each of whom is engaging in a particular way.
Just as interesting for me, though, has been the reaction of those who
support the very Serbs the United Nations has indicted as war criminals.
Yet this reaction too is oddly encouraging, because it shows me these
letters are having an effect. It also shows people like me something
important about ourselves as well, as we look around Germany today. It
shows us that if we could ever have met Claus von Stauffenberg, Hans and
Sophie Scholl, Christoph Probst, or any of the other hundreds and
thousands of Germans who gave their lives in attempts to bring down the
Nazi regime, we might perhaps have been able to look them in the eye. We
might not, after all, have had to hang our heads in shame because we had
done nothing to oppose the kind of evil they opposed.
Sincerely yours,
Robert J. Bennett
From notes@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:21:39 1995
Received: from cdp.igc.apc.org (192.82.108.1) by MediaFilter.org
with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:21:40 -0500
Received: (from notes) by cdp.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.204 ) id NAA24741 for "conf-zamir.chat"; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:49:03 -0700
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:06:17 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: Ivo Skoric
Subject: No Subject Given
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
Message-ID:
X-Gateway: conf2mail@igc.apc.org
Errors-To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 82
>From majordomo Fri Aug 25 02:25:47 1995
Received: (from majordomo) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) id CAA04584; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:47 -0700
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:47 -0700
Message-Id: <199508250925.CAA04584@igc3.igc.apc.org>
To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
From: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Subject: BOUNCE zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org: Non-member submission from [Robert John Bennett ]
Status: U
>From iskoric@igc.apc.org Fri Aug 25 02:25:42 1995
Received: from eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (eikon.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de [129.187.42.3]) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) with SMTP id CAA04571; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:35 -0700
Received: (from root@localhost) by eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA14580; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:25:01 +0200
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:15:19 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Robert John Bennett
Subject: Your Message
To: Ivo Skoric
cc: President Clinton , 100440.270@compuserve.com,
131!tim003@dialcom.tymnet.com, 5jensen_e@spcvxa.spc.edu,
71154.1605@compuserve.com, 74431.3674@compuserve.com,
AmComSaBos@aol.com, Balkaninst@aol.com, BosNet@cu23.crl.aecl.ca,
bosnews@doc.ic.ac.uk, Brentxxx@aol.com, daleh@efn.org,
dc42@cornell.edu, fastx@sky-tv.com, GMKURZON@aol.com,
haberman@eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de, IHT@eurokom.ie,
mag@news.nbc.com, MVANDIVER@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU, nightly@news.nbc.com,
ucklasl@ucl.ac.uk, Vice.President@whitehouse.gov,
wobidot@eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de, young@henson.cc.wwu.edu,
zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Ivo Skoric, Founder, Zamir Chatline
Hi Ivo,
Many thanks for your last message. I definitely agree flames should be
limited to private communication. If any of my letters have sounded like
flames, I apologize.
I'm sorry too that my messages haven't seemed appropriate for the Zamir
chatline. Thank you for suggesting the names of other forums. I'll add
them to my distribution list.
If you don't mind, though, I'd also like to keep sending my letters to
Zamir (except for a week around the middle of September when I have to
teach an out-of-town seminar, and so I'll be off-line). Of course I know
you can bounce the letters or delete them or edit them or forward them or
do whatever you want with them.
Please forgive me for doing this, because I know the messages are
upsetting and irritating to a number of your subscribers. However, I'm
afraid I'm one of those individuals who thinks that people in fact should
be upset and irritated by anything that has to do with the war in your
homeland and in Bosnia. After all, the people of Croatia and Bosnia have
been far more than just upset and irritated by that obscene conflict.
I'm convinced the war has to stop, and it has to stop under conditions
where there is a just peace. If enough people are upset and irritated, I
believe, then a solution will be found more quickly.
If everyone ignored my messages, if there were no response at all, and if
I thought the letters were having no effect of any kind on anyone, then I
would stop. However, people seem unable simply to ignore them - which
greatly surprises me - and so I would like to continue.
I think you can understand all this, because I have some sense of the kind
of person you are, after reading the pieces you've written - which, as
I've indicated, I admire a great deal.
So, my friend, the one who silences me will have to be you - by simply
deleting my messages from the chatline. The fact of the matter is that I
feel too strongly about the Balkan war, and all the death and suffering it
has brought in its train, to be able to silence myself.
Wishing you, sincerely, every success not only with your writing but with
everything you do,
Bob Bennett
From OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:28:23 1995
Received: from bi-node.zerberus.de (194.77.23.10) by MediaFilter.org
with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:28:24 -0500
Received: from bionic.zerberus.de by bi-node.zerberus.de with zconnect
(Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0smLoD-0002AlC; Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:02 MET DST
To: act@web.apc.org, aktiebnk@antenna.nl, antenna@earn.cvut.cz, Barnett_Rubin_at_CFR1@email.cfr.org, bruno@bbeloff.demon.co.uk, eagro@igc.apc.org, G.R.Beckett@bradford.ac.uk, GSOA@gsoa.link-ch1.ch, idee@dgs.dgsys.com, ifor@gn.apc.org, igcnewsdesk@igc.org, maggie@gn.apc.org, newsdesk@igc.apc.org, nizichi@hrw.org, peacemedia@gn.apc.org, peacenews@gn.apc.org, pmiller@amnesty.gn.apc.org, pnbalkans@igc.org, radiopanik@gn.apc.org, sj@mediafilter.org, verforum@vub.ac.be, w04boj31@icineca.cineca.it, warreport@gn.apc.org, zukicn@wu1.wl.aecl.ca
CC: DEBRA@OLN.comlink.apc.org, HHO_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de, GRADJ-ODB_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de
Message-Id: <5sb1CjGS_7B@pz-balk.zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org>
From: OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org (Otvorene oci )
Path: bionic.zerberus.de!zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org!OTVORENE-OCI_ST
Organization: Otvorene Oci
Subject: Knin-Gracac-Obrovac-Benkovac-Knin
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:33:00 +0100
X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02
X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UB bi-node.zerberus.de [UNIX/Connect v0.73]
rMMIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Z-Post: Male Putine 2/V; 41000 Zagreb CROATIA
X-Z-Telefon: +385-21-553-610 +385-1-156-349
X-Z-DDA: 19950826121248W+0
Lines: 99
//////////////////////////////***\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
O T V O R E N E O C I
Croatian Branch of the Balkan Peace Team
Male Putine 2/V 41000 Zagreb Croatia
Zagreb: tel/fax: 385-01-156349
Split : tel/fax: 385-21-553610
otvorene-oci_zg@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org
otvorene-oci_st@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\***////////////////////////////
[Split, August 26]
To get a broader perspective on the situation in former sector
South after the Croatian army operation "Storm", Otvorene Oci
drove through the area along the following route: Knin -Gracac
- Obrovac - Benkovac - Knin.
Entrance into the area does not seem to be a problem anymore.
Although an abundance of military checkpoints are still
present (around towns, on crossroads) travel is free.
Soldiers only check documents and in general do not ask
questions about the reason for presence in the area. The roads
are rather empty and the majority of the cars have a Croatian
army license plate or belong to the civil police.
The road from Knin to Gracac has obviously been used by the
fleeing Krajina Serb population. Burnt out and broken down
cars and heaps of personal belongings alongside the road
testify the exodus. The first village, Padene was completely
burned and the burning of Krajina Serb houses still continues.
Otvorene Oci witnessed a group of Croatian army soldiers
laughing and drinking beer while watching a house burn that
had just been set on fire. The neighbouring house was being
looted by 3 soldiers. Villages situated a few kilometres off
the main road had also been affected, some of the houses were
still burning. Between Zrmanja and Otric three busses had just
dropped off a group of soldiers. One of the soldiers stated
that they were carrying out a `cleaning operation', an action
to comb the area in search of Krajina Serb soldiers. In the
village of Otric itself every house had been set ablaze. Near
the village of Malovan another `cleaning operation ' was being
conducted.
There is no sign of civil life in Gracac, except for the few
signs put up by the new local authorities earmarking buildings
for specific future use (town hall, post office, local
forestry and road works department). The inhabitants have
left, now only soldiers and police walk the streets. Houses
were burnt, but the main damage, broken windows, is caused by
widespread ongoing and systematic looting. In the
neighbourhood visited by Otvorene Oci no house had been spared
by the looters. Just before Gracac a graveyard is situated
where according to a UN source allegedly more people have been
buried than the amount of new graves indicates. Otvorene Oci
was not able to verify this fact.
The area along the road from Gracac to Obrovac is sparsely
populated. Getting closer to Obrovac more proof of systematic
burning was witnessed in the villages Muskovci and Zaton. In
Obrovac itself a different atmosphere prevails in comparison
to Knin and Gracac. Although civil life has not really
returned, military presence was low. There was little
destruction or burnt houses to be seen, although shops in the
main street had been broken into and looted. Looting was
observed in several houses, but was not as widespread as in
the two aforementioned towns. Whereas in Knin or Gracac the
team could walk into any house, many of the houses in Obrovac
were locked, with a piece of paper on the door declaring the
property's new owner. Quite a few people from the village of
Krusevo had put up these signs.
On the road to Benkovac the village of Krusevo had been lost
to the flames. The situation in Benkovac itself is comparable
to that of Obrovac. There are few soldiers to be seen, nor
police. Signs of people returning are visible; a relatively
large amount of civilian cars on the roads, people checking
their property, reconstruction of houses and carrying window
panes accross the streets, a group was patching up a cafe. The
main street shows signs of systematic looting, but at the same
time two shops had already been opened. A vet had already
opened his veterinary.
An old couple, a Croat woman and a Serb man, were sitting
beside their house of which the first floor was completely
burnt out. On Friday morning, August 4, at 03.00 o'clock
Krajina soldiers came to say that they should flee the
country. Whereas the rest of the family did flee they decided
to stay and were taken to Zadar the next day by the Croatian
army. He stated that they had been treated correctly by the
soldiers. They stayed there for 14 days. While the
neighbouring house was being looted, the husband stated that
the civilian police had been confiscating cars the previous 4
days and that people from towns on the Dalmatian coast had
come to Benkovac to loot.
The road from Benkovac to Knin shows many signs of burning and
looting. In almost every village houses had been set on fire,
especcially in Kozlovac, Djeverska, Rudele and Raducic. In
Kistanje and Varivode almost every single house had been
subject to deliberate burning. ## CrossPoint v3.02 ##
From OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:28:57 1995
Received: from bi-node.zerberus.de (194.77.23.10) by MediaFilter.org
with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:28:59 -0500
Received: from bionic.zerberus.de by bi-node.zerberus.de with zconnect
(Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0smLoD-0002AmC; Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:02 MET DST
To: act@web.apc.org, aktiebnk@antenna.nl, antenna@earn.cvut.cz, Barnett_Rubin_at_CFR1@email.cfr.org, bruno@bbeloff.demon.co.uk, eagro@igc.apc.org, G.R.Beckett@bradford.ac.uk, GSOA@gsoa.link-ch1.ch, idee@dgs.dgsys.com, ifor@gn.apc.org, igcnewsdesk@igc.org, maggie@gn.apc.org, newsdesk@igc.apc.org, nizichi@hrw.org, peacemedia@gn.apc.org, peacenews@gn.apc.org, pmiller@amnesty.gn.apc.org, pnbalkans@igc.org, radiopanik@gn.apc.org, sj@mediafilter.org, verforum@vub.ac.be, w04boj31@icineca.cineca.it, warreport@gn.apc.org, zukicn@wu1.wl.aecl.ca
CC: DEBRA@OLN.comlink.apc.org, HHO_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de, GRADJ-ODB_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de
Message-Id: <5sb1KSsx_7B@pz-balk.zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org>
From: OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org (Otvorene oci )
Path: bionic.zerberus.de!zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org!OTVORENE-OCI_ST
Organization: Otvorene Oci
Subject: Follow up visit to Knin
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:37:00 +0100
X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02
X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UB bi-node.zerberus.de [UNIX/Connect v0.73]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Z-Post: Male Putine 2/V; 41000 Zagreb CROATIA
X-Z-Telefon: +385-21-553-610 +385-1-156-349
X-Z-DDA: 19950826121432W+0
Lines: 64
//////////////////////////////***\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
O T V O R E N E O C I
Croatian Branch of the Balkan Peace Team
Male Putine 2/V 41000 Zagreb Croatia
Zagreb: tel/fax: 385-01-156349
Split : tel/fax: 385-21-553610
otvorene-oci_zg@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org
otvorene-oci_st@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\***////////////////////////////
[Split, August 26]
On August 22 and 25 Otvorene Oci Split visited former sector
South. The first day was spent in Knin in company of the
Dalmatian Committee of Solidarity (DOS) who are trying to
initiate the establishment of a form of permanent presence for
the "Coordination of Human Rights Groups in Croatia" in the
area and the second day the team gathered additional
information about the situation in former sector South.
A meeting with Mr. Pasic, the charge d'affaires for the
Croatian government in Knin did not yield immediate results in
terms of obtaining office space. An official request has been
sent to him. A meeting with the UNHCR protection officer in
Knin, Mr. Otim, produced agreement on possible future
cooperation with DOS.
In a meeting held with Mr. Otim, on Tuesday he reported that
of the 743 people currently residing in the camp, 687 had
expressed in writing, their desire to leave Croatia. The date
for the transport had been tentatively set for Saturday
morning (26.08.95). Information received on Friday revealed
that the departure has been indefinately postponed. It had
been previously agreed that approximately 10 people would
remain for questioning by the Croatian authorities, all
accused of war crimes. The Croatian authorities have refused
to let any of the refugees leave until 62 people have been
turned over to them for questioning.
Friday, also revealed that the number of refugees in the UN
compound is no longer static, with the number increasing each
day. Included in this are some refugees who had left the
compound for their own homes and after finding their houses
uninhabitable or after being intimidated by Croatian soldiers
decided to return. There are also reports of some isolated
beatings of these people.
Obtaining documents for those people that wish to remain in
the area, is proving to be relatively easy, although time
consuming, as Otvorene Oci discovered while helping an elderly
Serbian lady begin the process. The Ministry of Defence is
issuing travel documents (propusnica) for everyone living in
the area. All residents living in the area of Knin are legally
obliged to carry this document. All other documents are being
issued (in person only) at the Opcina (town hall) in Knin, as
well as 200 kuna financial aid on production of a valid
propusnica. The police station is then issuing each "Osobna
Karte" (identity card) on production of a Domovnica
(certificate of citizenship) and photographs. Queues are long
and waits of up to 5 days are occuring in order to obtain a
Domovnica.
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##