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From notes@igc.apc.org Mon Aug 21 16:36:57 1995
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: Ivo Skoric
Subject: Re: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/time for new ideas
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
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This means that I could live in state of New York, but recognize to
be governed by the government of state of Nevada, pay less in state taxes and
have no outrageously expensive car liability insurance? I like the
idea. I didn't know it is possible in the U.S. Two tumbs up. Well,
Bush did it, didn't he? Now, I don't know if such an ETHNOTOPIA is
really feasible in the Balkans at the present time - because it
requires governments cooperation - a concept entirely unfamiliar to
government structures in the Balkans.
ivo
Date: 20 Aug 1995 20:21:27
Reply-to: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: glasnp@mirage.skypoint.com
Subject: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/time for new ideas
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
My reading on the Bosnian crisis suggests that there will never be a
successful solution
based on "new" geographic boundries. What is needed is an entirely new
form of government--
one that is NOT geographically based. My solution is quite simple, but
hopefully not
simplistic. Each person in the region of former Yugoslavia would "elect"
which government
would represent them. So, for example, a Bosnian Croat could elect to be
governed by
Croatia, etc. The "governments" would exist and would enact laws that
would apply to
those who have elected to be governed by them. The governments would need
to cooperate
on certain matters such as the building of common roads. This would be
done by treaty.
Where conflicts occur between "citizens" of one "state" and "citizens" of
another "state,"
the courts would be required to apply a "choice of law" analysis much as
courts do in the
U.S.A.when deciding cases between citizens of different states (i.e.,
Minnesota v.
Wisconsin).
Sound crazy? Two points: 1. This system is very similar to what applies
to foreign
nationals living abroad and to members of Native American Tribes in the U.S.
2. Can the obvious complexities be any worse than trying to divide up a
small nation
into many different parts that will NEVER quite work?
Let each person choose the government that will represent that person but
let each person
stay put!
Well, not being a Balkan scholar I have no idea whether my idea is silly
or worthwhile.
If anyone out there thinks its worthwhile, and can pass it along to
someone who can make
a difference, please be my guest and thanks.
From notes@igc.apc.org Mon Aug 21 16:47:39 1995
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: Ivo Skoric
Subject: Re: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/sympathy
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
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Those who resort to violence cannot expect to be ultimately treated
any different by the others.
ivo
Date: 20 Aug 1995 22:49:13
Reply-to: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: doctorb@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/sympathy
To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l
From: doctorb@ix.netcom.com (. )
Subject: Re: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/sympathy
You wrote:
>
>From: PeaceNet Balkans Desk
>Subject: Re: http://mediafilter.org/SJ/Pages/sympathy
>a chance to reply to Charles Naef, who says, . .
> >
>The analysis gets really haywire when you say,
> > Only by punishing
> > all the parties to this bloody conflict might the international
> >community be able to bring them to the insight that nothing is to be
> >gained by military action.
>Oh good, spank the victims along with the perpetrators, I guess on the
>grounds that both have interfered with our view of an orderly world.
The only "orderly view" of the world interfered with is your simple
viewpoint. Conditions on the ground in Yugoslavia are local and there
are very few eyes on them.
The idea of "letting the Bosnians defend themselves" is
contradictory. Where are they going to get the armaments to defend
themselves with? From outside assumedly. So are "they" defending
"themselves"? Which was the point of the arms embargo: Cut them both
off so they're reduced to fighting with stones.
It didn't work because the US unilaterally broke it 8 months ago
and started supplying the Croats.
>Then again, how is the "international community" supposed to punish if
>not by war, or something just as bad (e.g., the starving of the Iraqi
>population in pusuit of the US's lofty international aims?
The US embargo of Iraq is producing 500-1000 deaths by starvation
or disease due to malnutrition per week. It is a gutless, immoral
strategy. It should be stopped. Enough is enough: they suffered 300,000
casualties in that "war".
Now, of the 147,000 Bosniac casualties in the war to call various
pieces of ground 'Bosnia-Herzegovina" or 'Serpska Republica' how many
of those were to death by starvation in "concentration" i.e. prison
camps or from the elements, before the UN stopped this aspect of war?
And how did the embargo of the former Yugoslavia effect the availabilty
of foodstuff for Bosniac prisoners? Duuh.
>The Western attempt to weasel out of the recognition that sometimes
>people will go to war to defend themselves is a result of the
>convenient inability to distinguish aggressors from victims, and an
>unwilligness to accept that there is a factual, real-world obligation
>to come to treat victims and agressors differently. IMO, of course.
>Heaven forbid there might be moral grounds for the necessity to fight
>in order to protect someone who is being savaged. -- ed agro (posting
>from Boston)
Look, I don't know if you were born yesterday but war is savage. I
don't think the "international community" has any obligation to win the
war for the Bosniacs just because they voted a country in to existence
with the temporary collusion of the Bosnian Croats who, within a year
of this vote were themselves at war with the Bosnian Muslims.
From notes@igc.apc.org Mon Aug 21 16:58:45 1995
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"
From: Ivo Skoric
Subject: No Subject Given
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>From majordomo Sun Aug 20 10:08:18 1995
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From: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org
Subject: BOUNCE zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org: Non-member submission from [Robert John Bennett ]
Status: U
>From iskoric@igc.apc.org Sun Aug 20 10:08:14 1995
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:02:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Robert John Bennett
Subject: Now Gorazde
To: President Clinton
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Dear President Clinton:
My Serb acquaintances here are already celebrating. "Can you believe it?"
one of them said to me. "Just a few weeks ago, after Srebrenica and Zepa
fell, the UN and Nato were holding frantic meetings all over Europe and in
Washington. They were drawing up all sorts of wonderful plans and issuing
terrific ultimatums about defending the 'safe haven' of Gorazde."
She paused, as if savoring how delicious it all was. "And now the British
announce their withdrawing their troops from the town! They claim they can
defend it with air power - I suppose the way they defended Srebrenica and
Zepa, the way they've been defending Sarajevo with their precious air power."
I asked her if she thought anybody believed that.
"Sure," she said, "the ones who want to believe it. Who knows, maybe even
Richard Holbrooke believes it."
She smiled to herself. "Holbrooke, yes. Where DO the Americans and
Europeans keep finding these people? The accident outside Sarajevo
yesterday was tragic - I mean that - but talk about gullible: from Lord
David Owen four years ago to Stoltenberg to Carl Bildt - and now
Holbrooke. They all get on the Zagreb-Belgrade-Sarajevo shuttle for a
while, and they maneuver with Tudjman, Izetbegovic, and Milosevic, chasing
rainbows until they get tired and give up.
"Then some other poor joe comes along to take up the 'negotiations.'"
I said it reminded me of something Dr. Johnson once said in a different
context: "It represents the triumph of hope over experience."
She looked at me, puzzled. "I don't know who Dr. Johnson is," she said.
"But I do know that we're well on our way to getting the eastern half of
Bosnia."
I asked her if that wasn't less than what the Serbs were originally aiming
for.
"Well," she replied, "to coin a phrase: 'You can't always get what you
want.' Not right away, anyway. So we let the Croatians have the western
half of Bosnia for now. So what? We'll be back for more later, when we're
ready.
"And next time we won't stop in the Krajina. Next time we go all the way
to Zagreb."
She smiled to herself again. "And meanwhile, Holbrooke does the 'Bosnia
shuffle.'
"And the Nato boys issue their little ultimatums."
Sincerely yours,
Robert J. Bennett
Munich