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From notes@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:20:48 1995 Received: from cdp.igc.apc.org (192.82.108.1) by MediaFilter.org with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:20:48 -0500 Received: (from notes) by cdp.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.204 ) id NAA24745 for "conf-zamir.chat"; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:49:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat"From: Ivo Skoric Subject: No Subject Given To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l Message-ID: X-Gateway: conf2mail@igc.apc.org Errors-To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org Precedence: bulk Lines: 85 >From majordomo Sat Aug 26 04:40:00 1995 Received: (from majordomo) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) id EAA28831; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:59 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199508261139.EAA28831@igc3.igc.apc.org> To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org From: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org Subject: BOUNCE zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org: Non-member submission from [Robert Bennett <100440.270@compuserve.com>] Status: U >From iskoric@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 04:39:55 1995 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) with SMTP id EAA28820 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:39:54 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA16798; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:36:08 -0400 Date: 26 Aug 95 07:35:26 EDT From: Robert Bennett <100440.270@compuserve.com> To: PRESIDENT CLINTON Cc: 01 , 02 , 03 , 04 , 05 <74431.3674@compuserve.com>, 06 <71154.1605@compuserve.com>, 07 , 08 , 09 , 10 , 11 <5jensen_e@spcvxa.spc.edu>, 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 <131!tim003@dialcom.tymnet.com>, 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 Subject: Berlin to Sarajevo Message-ID: <950826113525_100440.270_BHG61-1@CompuServe.COM> Dear President Clinton: Any American living in Germany as I do, sometimes cannot help looking around at this country - free, prosperous, democratic, ruled by law - and wondering, "What must it have been like here during the Nazi dictatorship?" And once we ask that question, another logically follows: "If I had been alive at that time, and lived in Germany, what would I in fact have done, how would I in fact have responded to the decrees of the Party, to the Gestapo, and all the rest?" We also ask ourselves, "If I had been alive then, would I have ever struggled for the ideals that I believe in? Would I have even spoken out for those ideals? Would I have risked anything at all then?" Obvously no one can respond to that question who did not live here during the Nazi period. I think anyone can, however, learn something of a probable answer by doing whatever is possible for those people in today's world whose existence is threatened by aggression, terror, and brutality. And all of us can, I believe, learn even more about ourselves when our actions are met with rage and anger from those who are either blind to - or who sympathize with - the men committing that aggression, terror, and brutality today in Bosnia. A few months ago, after four years of feeling powerless to do anything about Serb atrocities in the Balkans, I decided to begin sending letters to you as often as I could about the war, with copies to whomever I thought might be interested. I had no idea of the reaction I would provoke. Much of it has been favorable and supportive, of course, coming from a variety of individuals, each of whom is engaging in a particular way. Just as interesting for me, though, has been the reaction of those who support the very Serbs the United Nations has indicted as war criminals. Yet this reaction too is oddly encouraging, because it shows me these letters are having an effect. It also shows people like me something important about ourselves as well, as we look around Germany today. It shows us that if we could ever have met Claus von Stauffenberg, Hans and Sophie Scholl, Christoph Probst, or any of the other hundreds and thousands of Germans who gave their lives in attempts to bring down the Nazi regime, we might perhaps have been able to look them in the eye. We might not, after all, have had to hang our heads in shame because we had done nothing to oppose the kind of evil they opposed. Sincerely yours, Robert J. Bennett From notes@igc.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:21:39 1995 Received: from cdp.igc.apc.org (192.82.108.1) by MediaFilter.org with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:21:40 -0500 Received: (from notes) by cdp.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.204 ) id NAA24741 for "conf-zamir.chat"; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:49:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Conference "zamir.chat" From: Ivo Skoric Subject: No Subject Given To: Recipients of zamir-chat-l Message-ID: X-Gateway: conf2mail@igc.apc.org Errors-To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org Precedence: bulk Lines: 82 >From majordomo Fri Aug 25 02:25:47 1995 Received: (from majordomo) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) id CAA04584; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199508250925.CAA04584@igc3.igc.apc.org> To: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org From: owner-zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org Subject: BOUNCE zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org: Non-member submission from [Robert John Bennett ] Status: U >From iskoric@igc.apc.org Fri Aug 25 02:25:42 1995 Received: from eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (eikon.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de [129.187.42.3]) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.6 ) with SMTP id CAA04571; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:25:35 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA14580; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:25:01 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:15:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Robert John Bennett Subject: Your Message To: Ivo Skoric cc: President Clinton , 100440.270@compuserve.com, 131!tim003@dialcom.tymnet.com, 5jensen_e@spcvxa.spc.edu, 71154.1605@compuserve.com, 74431.3674@compuserve.com, AmComSaBos@aol.com, Balkaninst@aol.com, BosNet@cu23.crl.aecl.ca, bosnews@doc.ic.ac.uk, Brentxxx@aol.com, daleh@efn.org, dc42@cornell.edu, fastx@sky-tv.com, GMKURZON@aol.com, haberman@eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de, IHT@eurokom.ie, mag@news.nbc.com, MVANDIVER@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU, nightly@news.nbc.com, ucklasl@ucl.ac.uk, Vice.President@whitehouse.gov, wobidot@eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de, young@henson.cc.wwu.edu, zamir-chat-l@igc.apc.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: Ivo Skoric, Founder, Zamir Chatline Hi Ivo, Many thanks for your last message. I definitely agree flames should be limited to private communication. If any of my letters have sounded like flames, I apologize. I'm sorry too that my messages haven't seemed appropriate for the Zamir chatline. Thank you for suggesting the names of other forums. I'll add them to my distribution list. If you don't mind, though, I'd also like to keep sending my letters to Zamir (except for a week around the middle of September when I have to teach an out-of-town seminar, and so I'll be off-line). Of course I know you can bounce the letters or delete them or edit them or forward them or do whatever you want with them. Please forgive me for doing this, because I know the messages are upsetting and irritating to a number of your subscribers. However, I'm afraid I'm one of those individuals who thinks that people in fact should be upset and irritated by anything that has to do with the war in your homeland and in Bosnia. After all, the people of Croatia and Bosnia have been far more than just upset and irritated by that obscene conflict. I'm convinced the war has to stop, and it has to stop under conditions where there is a just peace. If enough people are upset and irritated, I believe, then a solution will be found more quickly. If everyone ignored my messages, if there were no response at all, and if I thought the letters were having no effect of any kind on anyone, then I would stop. However, people seem unable simply to ignore them - which greatly surprises me - and so I would like to continue. I think you can understand all this, because I have some sense of the kind of person you are, after reading the pieces you've written - which, as I've indicated, I admire a great deal. So, my friend, the one who silences me will have to be you - by simply deleting my messages from the chatline. The fact of the matter is that I feel too strongly about the Balkan war, and all the death and suffering it has brought in its train, to be able to silence myself. Wishing you, sincerely, every success not only with your writing but with everything you do, Bob Bennett From OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:28:23 1995 Received: from bi-node.zerberus.de (194.77.23.10) by MediaFilter.org with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:28:24 -0500 Received: from bionic.zerberus.de by bi-node.zerberus.de with zconnect (Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0smLoD-0002AlC; Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:02 MET DST To: act@web.apc.org, aktiebnk@antenna.nl, antenna@earn.cvut.cz, Barnett_Rubin_at_CFR1@email.cfr.org, bruno@bbeloff.demon.co.uk, eagro@igc.apc.org, G.R.Beckett@bradford.ac.uk, GSOA@gsoa.link-ch1.ch, idee@dgs.dgsys.com, ifor@gn.apc.org, igcnewsdesk@igc.org, maggie@gn.apc.org, newsdesk@igc.apc.org, nizichi@hrw.org, peacemedia@gn.apc.org, peacenews@gn.apc.org, pmiller@amnesty.gn.apc.org, pnbalkans@igc.org, radiopanik@gn.apc.org, sj@mediafilter.org, verforum@vub.ac.be, w04boj31@icineca.cineca.it, warreport@gn.apc.org, zukicn@wu1.wl.aecl.ca CC: DEBRA@OLN.comlink.apc.org, HHO_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de, GRADJ-ODB_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de Message-Id: <5sb1CjGS_7B@pz-balk.zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org> From: OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org (Otvorene oci ) Path: bionic.zerberus.de!zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org!OTVORENE-OCI_ST Organization: Otvorene Oci Subject: Knin-Gracac-Obrovac-Benkovac-Knin Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:33:00 +0100 X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02 X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UB bi-node.zerberus.de [UNIX/Connect v0.73] rMMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Z-Post: Male Putine 2/V; 41000 Zagreb CROATIA X-Z-Telefon: +385-21-553-610 +385-1-156-349 X-Z-DDA: 19950826121248W+0 Lines: 99 //////////////////////////////***\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ O T V O R E N E O C I Croatian Branch of the Balkan Peace Team Male Putine 2/V 41000 Zagreb Croatia Zagreb: tel/fax: 385-01-156349 Split : tel/fax: 385-21-553610 otvorene-oci_zg@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org otvorene-oci_st@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\***//////////////////////////// [Split, August 26] To get a broader perspective on the situation in former sector South after the Croatian army operation "Storm", Otvorene Oci drove through the area along the following route: Knin -Gracac - Obrovac - Benkovac - Knin. Entrance into the area does not seem to be a problem anymore. Although an abundance of military checkpoints are still present (around towns, on crossroads) travel is free. Soldiers only check documents and in general do not ask questions about the reason for presence in the area. The roads are rather empty and the majority of the cars have a Croatian army license plate or belong to the civil police. The road from Knin to Gracac has obviously been used by the fleeing Krajina Serb population. Burnt out and broken down cars and heaps of personal belongings alongside the road testify the exodus. The first village, Padene was completely burned and the burning of Krajina Serb houses still continues. Otvorene Oci witnessed a group of Croatian army soldiers laughing and drinking beer while watching a house burn that had just been set on fire. The neighbouring house was being looted by 3 soldiers. Villages situated a few kilometres off the main road had also been affected, some of the houses were still burning. Between Zrmanja and Otric three busses had just dropped off a group of soldiers. One of the soldiers stated that they were carrying out a `cleaning operation', an action to comb the area in search of Krajina Serb soldiers. In the village of Otric itself every house had been set ablaze. Near the village of Malovan another `cleaning operation ' was being conducted. There is no sign of civil life in Gracac, except for the few signs put up by the new local authorities earmarking buildings for specific future use (town hall, post office, local forestry and road works department). The inhabitants have left, now only soldiers and police walk the streets. Houses were burnt, but the main damage, broken windows, is caused by widespread ongoing and systematic looting. In the neighbourhood visited by Otvorene Oci no house had been spared by the looters. Just before Gracac a graveyard is situated where according to a UN source allegedly more people have been buried than the amount of new graves indicates. Otvorene Oci was not able to verify this fact. The area along the road from Gracac to Obrovac is sparsely populated. Getting closer to Obrovac more proof of systematic burning was witnessed in the villages Muskovci and Zaton. In Obrovac itself a different atmosphere prevails in comparison to Knin and Gracac. Although civil life has not really returned, military presence was low. There was little destruction or burnt houses to be seen, although shops in the main street had been broken into and looted. Looting was observed in several houses, but was not as widespread as in the two aforementioned towns. Whereas in Knin or Gracac the team could walk into any house, many of the houses in Obrovac were locked, with a piece of paper on the door declaring the property's new owner. Quite a few people from the village of Krusevo had put up these signs. On the road to Benkovac the village of Krusevo had been lost to the flames. The situation in Benkovac itself is comparable to that of Obrovac. There are few soldiers to be seen, nor police. Signs of people returning are visible; a relatively large amount of civilian cars on the roads, people checking their property, reconstruction of houses and carrying window panes accross the streets, a group was patching up a cafe. The main street shows signs of systematic looting, but at the same time two shops had already been opened. A vet had already opened his veterinary. An old couple, a Croat woman and a Serb man, were sitting beside their house of which the first floor was completely burnt out. On Friday morning, August 4, at 03.00 o'clock Krajina soldiers came to say that they should flee the country. Whereas the rest of the family did flee they decided to stay and were taken to Zadar the next day by the Croatian army. He stated that they had been treated correctly by the soldiers. They stayed there for 14 days. While the neighbouring house was being looted, the husband stated that the civilian police had been confiscating cars the previous 4 days and that people from towns on the Dalmatian coast had come to Benkovac to loot. The road from Benkovac to Knin shows many signs of burning and looting. In almost every village houses had been set on fire, especcially in Kozlovac, Djeverska, Rudele and Raducic. In Kistanje and Varivode almost every single house had been subject to deliberate burning. ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## From OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org Sat Aug 26 19:28:57 1995 Received: from bi-node.zerberus.de (194.77.23.10) by MediaFilter.org with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:28:59 -0500 Received: from bionic.zerberus.de by bi-node.zerberus.de with zconnect (Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0smLoD-0002AmC; Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:02 MET DST To: act@web.apc.org, aktiebnk@antenna.nl, antenna@earn.cvut.cz, Barnett_Rubin_at_CFR1@email.cfr.org, bruno@bbeloff.demon.co.uk, eagro@igc.apc.org, G.R.Beckett@bradford.ac.uk, GSOA@gsoa.link-ch1.ch, idee@dgs.dgsys.com, ifor@gn.apc.org, igcnewsdesk@igc.org, maggie@gn.apc.org, newsdesk@igc.apc.org, nizichi@hrw.org, peacemedia@gn.apc.org, peacenews@gn.apc.org, pmiller@amnesty.gn.apc.org, pnbalkans@igc.org, radiopanik@gn.apc.org, sj@mediafilter.org, verforum@vub.ac.be, w04boj31@icineca.cineca.it, warreport@gn.apc.org, zukicn@wu1.wl.aecl.ca CC: DEBRA@OLN.comlink.apc.org, HHO_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de, GRADJ-ODB_ZG@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.zer.de Message-Id: <5sb1KSsx_7B@pz-balk.zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org> From: OTVORENE-OCI_ST@ZAMIR-ZG.ztn.apc.org (Otvorene oci ) Path: bionic.zerberus.de!zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org!OTVORENE-OCI_ST Organization: Otvorene Oci Subject: Follow up visit to Knin Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:37:00 +0100 X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02 X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UB bi-node.zerberus.de [UNIX/Connect v0.73] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Z-Post: Male Putine 2/V; 41000 Zagreb CROATIA X-Z-Telefon: +385-21-553-610 +385-1-156-349 X-Z-DDA: 19950826121432W+0 Lines: 64 //////////////////////////////***\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ O T V O R E N E O C I Croatian Branch of the Balkan Peace Team Male Putine 2/V 41000 Zagreb Croatia Zagreb: tel/fax: 385-01-156349 Split : tel/fax: 385-21-553610 otvorene-oci_zg@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org otvorene-oci_st@zamir-zg.ztn.apc.org \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\***//////////////////////////// [Split, August 26] On August 22 and 25 Otvorene Oci Split visited former sector South. The first day was spent in Knin in company of the Dalmatian Committee of Solidarity (DOS) who are trying to initiate the establishment of a form of permanent presence for the "Coordination of Human Rights Groups in Croatia" in the area and the second day the team gathered additional information about the situation in former sector South. A meeting with Mr. Pasic, the charge d'affaires for the Croatian government in Knin did not yield immediate results in terms of obtaining office space. An official request has been sent to him. A meeting with the UNHCR protection officer in Knin, Mr. Otim, produced agreement on possible future cooperation with DOS. In a meeting held with Mr. Otim, on Tuesday he reported that of the 743 people currently residing in the camp, 687 had expressed in writing, their desire to leave Croatia. The date for the transport had been tentatively set for Saturday morning (26.08.95). Information received on Friday revealed that the departure has been indefinately postponed. It had been previously agreed that approximately 10 people would remain for questioning by the Croatian authorities, all accused of war crimes. The Croatian authorities have refused to let any of the refugees leave until 62 people have been turned over to them for questioning. Friday, also revealed that the number of refugees in the UN compound is no longer static, with the number increasing each day. Included in this are some refugees who had left the compound for their own homes and after finding their houses uninhabitable or after being intimidated by Croatian soldiers decided to return. There are also reports of some isolated beatings of these people. Obtaining documents for those people that wish to remain in the area, is proving to be relatively easy, although time consuming, as Otvorene Oci discovered while helping an elderly Serbian lady begin the process. The Ministry of Defence is issuing travel documents (propusnica) for everyone living in the area. All residents living in the area of Knin are legally obliged to carry this document. All other documents are being issued (in person only) at the Opcina (town hall) in Knin, as well as 200 kuna financial aid on production of a valid propusnica. The police station is then issuing each "Osobna Karte" (identity card) on production of a Domovnica (certificate of citizenship) and photographs. Queues are long and waits of up to 5 days are occuring in order to obtain a Domovnica. ## CrossPoint v3.02 ##