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Yeah...let's discontinue the use of OC spray...and bring back the fucking black jack, you leftist dickheads........(go out and do a police 'ridealong' before you judge law enforcement equipment, you clever academicians....)
I'm interested in the civilian use of pepper spray as a defense against attackers, especially rapists.despite it's limitations, is it still the best form of non lethal self-defense in the absense of a more comprehensive course in self-defense teqniques. please advise. Alan Solomon eastfour@concentric.com
OC Spray is not an ablsolute, but instead adds another tool to a police officer's means of taking a hostile suspect into custody without the use of violent or deadly force. I myself have only used my OC Spray once and it helped me take a subject into custody without having to use reapeated baton strikes to gain compliance. Baton strikes would have left bruising and possible broken bones, but the OC left no permanant or lasting injuries to the individual I arrested.
I really doubt the facts in this article. You cant be serious that a department the size of Berkley has only had 36 spraying since 1993! Give me a break. I know for a fact my city has had a 95-99% effective rate the past three years. Most startling is the fact that suspects that have been sprayed before are usually more cooperative the next time the are dealt with. Just like a gun, car, club or karate, nothing is ever 100% effective. What you have to look at is if these officers werent using pepper spray what force option would they use? If you look into excessive use of force claims since a particular department has gone to the pepper spray force option I am almost sure that each departments excessive force claims will have dropped dramatically! Oh by the way I have ben sprayed at least 40 times, I am sold on it!
You've missed some research on the issue of OC effectiveness. Check a recent article by Morabito and Dornner in "Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies and Management". I've also completed a study on the issue of effectiveness, presented at the American Society of Criminology Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences conferences and conclude that "definition" is critical. (we found it to be 70% to 86% effective depending on how it is defined). E-mail me if you would like copies of the papers. Bob Kaminski Social Science Analyst National Institute of Justice kaminski@ojp.usdoj.gov (202) 616-9135
All I know about oc spray in my department is that assaults on officers is markedly down since we started using it, as are suspect injuries. If it doesn't work, please don't tell our perpitrators.
While it clear that not all of those who have responded on this page - have not:1)ever had first hand contact with OC spray; 2)been at a scene were a combative suspect has become severly aggressive as a result of its use; 3)seen the after-effects on those individuals who are highly sensitive to it - both suspect and officer; or understand that regardless of what an officer uses to subdue a suspect -- there will always be an element of "risk" involved! Since the "risk" is known - in the OC spray -- to be one of potential "long-lasting" or debilitating after effects. The Commission had to take the action they took. What is not clarified, nor emphasised - is the "risk" and harm some officers have experienced because of this spray. I have treated some officers and suspects who had this spray used in their eyes -- if the spray permeates into the tissue of the eye, damage results that cannot be reversed [in sever cases, blindness results]. The tissue above and below the eye is very delicate, and will always be "burned" when this spray contacts with it! That results in scare tissue. Regardless of who or why, is on the receiving end of such damage -- One has to ask, whether another method of control would be preferable!
While it is clear that not all of those who have responded on this page - have not:1)ever had first hand contact with OC spray; 2)been at a scene were a combative suspect has become severly aggressive as a result of its use; 3)seen the after-effects on those individuals who are highly sensitive to it - both suspect and officer; or understand that regardless of what an officer uses to subdue a suspect -- there will always be an element of "risk" involved! Since the "risk" is known - in the OC spray -- to be one of potential "long-lasting" or debilitating after effects. The Commission had to take the action they took. What is not clarified, nor emphasised - is the "risk" and harm some officers have experienced because of this spray. I have treated some officers and suspects who had this spray used in their eyes -- if the spray permeates into the tissue of the eye, damage results that cannot be reversed [in sever cases, blindness results]. The tissue above and below the eye is very delicate, and will always be "burned" when this spray contacts with it! That results in scare tissue. Regardless of who or why, is on the receiving end of such damage -- One has to ask, whether another method of control would be preferable!
Any study associated with the ultra-leftist City of Berkley Police Review Commission is going to be suspect in the minds of law enforcement professionals. Nationwide, OC spray has been found to be approximately 80% effective. If your data doesn't reflect the national average, perhaps you need to review your OC use policy and the type/brand of OC spray you are deploying. That's the common sense approach to a complex issue like this. But the words "common sense" and "Berkley" are not usually spoken in the same breath.
The graphics you posted on this page which are supposed to represent the City of Berkley Police Commission by depicting the police as "Storm Troopers" with dollar signs on their helmets is appauling. How could anyone take you clowns seriously?
Hey 209.25. You spelled Berkeley wrong you moron jerk! It's the rest of the rednecks in America who lack common sense. You fool.
I have to say I believe this article is innacurate as to the consistancy of pepper spray effectivness.The first and foremost reason your article is not conclusive is that the brand of pepper spray is never mentioned. This has to be the most important factor in pepper spray strength and reliability. Bodyguard and Phase IV pepper spray are the two most potent formulas on the market and through past experience have been the most effective. I am not going to go through all the details of how OC is made but I will say there are many differences in formulas. The second item not addressed in this article is that if an Officer does not get a direct full facial hit on a suspect with OC spray then his hit will obviously be less effective. Finally, I would like to ask if you are not happy with the temporary non lethal pain that OC provides would you be much happier with more broken bones form night sticks,heart attacks from stun guns or shootings? Clearly this must make sense that OC is a great less than lethal alternative.
There is a case in Canada right now, which is being investigated by a Government Commission. At an APEC Conference many students protested the prescence of Suharto, the Indonesian dictator. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police pepper sprayed the students even though they were only carrying signs. There's some horrible footage of the incident which has been played on T.V. It isn't only violent people who are being sprayed. Our prime minister is making "funny" jokes about it. "I put pepper on my steak"- I'll eat a pepper steak- or the students were lucky that they weren't hit with a baseball bat or a water cannon. I guess it's lucky that none of them were killed, especially as the "Raging Grannies" were out there protesting. The newspapers, even the liberal ones, are saying the stuff is quite safe. Where did they get that idea?
What kind of pepper spray was used? 500,000SHU,1,500,000SHU or 2,000,000SHU? If a good formulation is used the incapacitation level should be much higher. If they want a better formula they should try Freeze+P(CS/OC).
Personally CS-Mace is more effective on me than pepper spray. (Consequent finding of a training class) The CS spray made me drop to my knees and begin to panic. The Pepperspray(5%2mmSHU Bodyguard) with a fog burst top only made me cough and I temporarily could not open my eyes. After I put water on my eyes I was fine. The only after effect of the OC was a little puffiness around my eyes. Also, I would like to see the tapes where Modern Warriors students walked through tear gas spray and even pepper spray with absolutely no effect like the website claims. Search under assault prevention to find it. I believe there are a number of links on this site too. On a side note I prefer Aerko's Freeze+P (1%cs/1%oc).
Personally CS-Mace is more effective on me than pepper spray. (Consequent finding of a training class) The CS spray made me drop to my knees and begin to panic. The Pepperspray(5%2mmSHU Bodyguard) with a fog burst top only made me cough and I temporarily could not open my eyes. After I put water on my eyes I was fine. The only after effect of the OC was a little puffiness around my eyes. Also, I would like to see the tapes where Modern Warriors students walked through tear gas spray and even pepper spray with absolutely no effect like the website claims. Search under assault prevention to find it. I believe there are a number of links on this site too. On a side note I prefer Aerko's Freeze+P (1%cs/1%oc).
Personally CS-Mace is more effective on me than pepper spray. (Consequent finding of a training class) The CS spray made me drop to my knees and begin to panic. The Pepperspray(5%2mmSHU Bodyguard) with a fog burst top only made me cough and I temporarily could not open my eyes. After I put water on my eyes I was fine. The only after effect of the OC was a little puffiness around my eyes. Also, I would like to see the tapes where Modern Warriors students walked through tear gas spray and even pepper spray with absolutely no effect like the website claims. Search under assault prevention to find it. I believe there are a number of links on this site too. On a side note I prefer Aerko's Freeze+P (1%cs/1%oc).
A majority of the information is consistent with the training I have received. A goa oriented subjct can withstand direct exposure to spray delivered chemical munitions. However, like the adrenalin pumped mother who lifts a car off of her child, it only lasts a short time. Chemical munitions are primarily used to distract, disorient and disable some one that does nt realize that to struggle only makes it worse.
also check out "modern warrior" in New York City. Phil Messina also says pepper spray should not be used by police or civilians for safety reasons. Their tests show that 100% of people WHO HAVE A GOAL (like rape, robbery, violent attack or passionate plea like saving the redwoods) achieve their goal after being sprayed. Chemical companies are not happy about his recommendations.
The amount and degree of conflicting information posted on this page are evidence of the one most important fact. All pepper sprays are not the same! Any "report" that attempts to evaulate "OC spray" as a generic product will never stand up to objective scrutiny. The machine accurate measurement of OC stregnth is performed by a process called high pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC), not the Scoville Heat Unit (SHU) which is a taste test for the spice industry. The HPLC test measures the amount of active ingredient, called capsaicin. HPLC test results for Law Enforcement products can range from .18% capsaicin to .92% capsaicin, a difference of a factor of 5. The difference in effeciveness among OC brands is tremendous. The other ingredients in OC products are also a factor in health and safety. Responsible manufacterers use cosmetic industry approves solvents and propellants that have passed eye, skin and respiratory safety testing. Others, e.g. Aerko, Bodyguard/Phase IV, etc use Mehtylene Chloride, Perchloroethylene, Dithylene glycol monobutyl ether, Dymel 134A, CS Tear Gas, and ultraviolet dyes, all of which have serious health consequenses when coming into contact with body tissue ranging from chemical burns to frostbite to cancer. Since none of these products are regulated for the effectiveness of active ingredients or the safety of inert ingredients, it is the responsibility of the law enforcement agency using the product to know exactly what chemicals it contains, or find out in Exhibit 1 in Subject vs. Police Dept. alleging excessive force and permanent eye damage, skin depigmentation and respiratory ailmant, plaintiff seeks $450,000 compensatory and $15 million punative damages. See you in court, and please, no more generic OC "research." Name your product and its ingredients. PS- Berkeley PD's OC failures are the result of First Defense 10% oc, .18% capsaicin.
test
Sorry to say, anything that comes out of the Berkeley Police Commission is suspect. I have been in law enforcement for over 25 years. Chemical weapons such as tear gas, in all of its forms, I have been exposed to. The same with mace, and eventually OC spray. The effectiveness depends on the strength, age and what the spray hits. I have been sprayed approximately 6 times with mace with little or no effect. I have been sprayed twice with OC, probably receiving a higher concentration than would a suspect. The effects were instanteous and would render MOST people incapable of resisting or fighting. I have seen it used another dozen times in actual street situations and in only one instance did the suspect continue to fight. In 1/3 of those situations, the encounter could have very likely escalated to a deadly force situation. As it was, the suspects were subdued, treated, booked and eventually their cases ajudicated with no harm to the victim, officer OR suspect. As far as the suspects becoming MORE aggressive, the same can be held true with even a situation where the suspect is told he is under arrest. I have had that happen countless times, where a calm suspect is told he is under arrest and they become combative. So, do we now not tell people they are under arrest? 28% became "more aggressive." That means 72% became LESS aggressive. I'll take that percentage any day of the week if I, my officers, citizens AND suspects come away with no physical harm. Did the study also delve into the mental makeup of the more aggressive offenders? Did these offenders that became more aggressive, did they have a past history of assaultive behavior, especially toward the police? See, too many times "studies" are done to bolster one side or the others arguments pro or con on a subject and there is no real nuetral study. I have seen other studies about the effectiveness of OC and have personally witnessed its effectiveness. I believe that it is one of the best tools to avoid a more serious physical confrontation that has come along in years. Lt. M. Tarte
I think anyone who has used OC spray and has any knowledge about the subject, would have to greatly question this study. Granted, OC does not work 100% of the time. Many factors come into play as to why OC is not effective all of the time(drugs, alcohol...etc). OC is a great tool. It is a bridge between verbal dialogue and impact weapons. As an OC instructor, I am very curious as to why I have not heard of the so called "health complications" associated with OC. I am aware of the Sudden In Custody Death Syndrome and concerns with asthmatics. There are some other minor concerns, but using OC is a better alternative than a palm strike or baton, depending on the circumstances. If OC is such a "bad tool", why not study it more and pass that info on to those who teach others to use OC. If my information is correct, there has not been one single death caused solely by OC. There are always some other factors that have been involved. Befor you bash it and try to get it taken away, get all of your ducks in a row.
The choice of useing a spray vs. no spray is simple. It is "spare tire" in self defense. It would be better to have another means to atempt self defense then non at all. The results from this page could cause someone to decline the use of these products which may put them in more danger. In self defense, it is best to use and have the most options you can. Some self defense sprays are inefective but it also depended on the spray. Almost any company can produce a self defense spray. I recommend that the person who buys the spray without searching for the most effective spray is bound to have it fail. I personally have tested almost all brands of spray on me and friends who gave me permission. The best I've found is a brand called freeze+p. - Roy Johnson owner of combat sports supply. Email: combatsports@usa.net
I agree with most of the report concerning the use of OC alone. I am an advocate for CS/OC combined(freeze +p). As far as officer saftey is concerned proper use and training are key elements when using any type of weapon lethal or non-lethal.
I don't see any mention of brands of pepper sprays, or strenths. There are a few brands that, fo r whatever reason, only use OC rated at 500,000 skoville heat units. But the better sprays are rated at 2,000,000 heat units. another factor is the spray a fog, foam, stream, etc. The fog spray seems to be more effective b because you get a better respiratory effect from the subject inhaling the particles. So these facts should be considered before saying that it is ineffective.
you are full of shit try FREEZE+P and do a report on it.
I echo the comments made lauding Freeze Plus P. We have begun using many of the CS/OC blended Aerko products. Clearout and Deep Freeze are so much better than straight OC there is no comparison.
what are you nuts ?
cops are shit
Good Morning. I am the training officer of a small county jail in South Carolina. I have found this report to be somewhat accurate. Without detailed study, I estimate our product, when used on our inmates to be approximately 85% effective. You need to clairify effectiveness. We only expect the product to be a distraction (admittingly a painful one) until we can physically take charge of the violent inmate. Your article left out there are different "hotnesses" of OC spray. We currently use 2 Million SHU, where our state troopers only use500, 000 SHU, and we are contemplating going to a 5.3 Million SHU. Defensive products are gettingbetter and should not be given up on. Any item that can aid law enforcement, especially corrections, should be eagerly supported. This article seemed biased to not using OCspray. For further discussion you may contact me at: metroiva@aol.com or (864) 260-4145.
fuckin worked on me in boston. I was running away then it hit me and then I couldn't run away anymore. stupid shit should be outlawed.
oc spray works in greensboro nc..in the past 2 years i have it used it 5 times and each the the suspect has gone down crying like a baby..
JUST LIKE ANY OTHER WEAPON WHEN IN THE HANDS OF A PERSON WHO USES IT TO INFLICT HARM TO THE PERSON THEY ARE USING IT ON THE PEPPER SPRAY CAN KILL.
Please don't confuse the PRC as having any level of credibility. They are a group of "commies" out to influence some level of control over professional law enforecement.They are a bunch of liberal tree hugging lemmings with no lives of their own. They have a personal agenda. Pepper spray is a useful tool for law enforcement. No it's not perfect and shouldn't be used in every circumstance . The decision however should be made by those whose asses are on the line and not by some pussy whose doesn't have the stones to get out and protect his/her own city. So lets bring back mace and the old days of "clubbing them like baby harp seals". Just kidding! Mace isn't all that great either.
I DON'T LIVE WHERE YOU DO BUT THIS STUDY MUST HAVE BEEN CONDUCTED BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE POLICE,IT'S TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO DEPEND ON INFORMATION WHICH IS CONDUCTED FROM USE OF FORCE REPORT'S WHICH ARE NOT ARTICULATED PROFFESIONALY, I SUGGEST MORE TIME FOR INSTRUCTION AND LESS TIME D ON POLITICAL STUDIES....IT'S APPARENT THAT YOUR MOTIVES ARE NOT TO ENHANCE OFFICER SAFETY AS THEY ARE TO MAKE THE POLICE MORE ACCEPTABLE TO CIVIL LIABILITIES FOR USING A IMPACT WEAPON. MORE INSTRUCTION APPARENTLY IS REQUIRED.........
your stupid
What brand pepper spray was used. There are alot of cheap brands on the market. I personally use Punch. We had one incident where one officer sprayed an outraged subject several times with a spray called Sabre, it was inaffective. The individual was then sprayed by Punch and was quickly incapacitated and taken in to custody.
The question should not be "does it subdue people and protect the officer" it should be "IS IT SAFE FOR THE PUBLIC AND IS IT BEING USED APPROPRIATELY?" If there is a risk of death or serious side effect to the victim, it is not an acceptable risk. It is being used to let officers spray first and act later. The primary job of the police is to protect the public, maybe you don't regard a possible offender (innocent until proven guilty)or an inmate to be 'Joe Public' but by law s/he is. Furthermore, if pepper spray was used ONLY in situations where all other attempts were tried, I would agree with its use. Unfortunately, it is being used on peaceful protesters in non-violent situations without even a warning being given to them. They are not endangering the police in these situations but exercising their right of free speech and expression that is fundamental to a FREE society. If the spray was a good kind that did not have harmful chemicals and was restricted in its use to situations of high risk, I would accept it as an alternative to the night stick, if not, it is a breech of authority by the police and should be taken away for the protection of the public from police brutality. I'm not a "bleeding heart" leftist or a "communist", I am someone that feels that safety should be the first consideration, both for the officers who protect and SERVE the public and for the public itself. More scientific test should be performed to evaluate this product, its chemical make-up and effects, and its proper use. I'm not saying scrap pepper spray, let's just take the proper steps to minimize the potential risks and use it properly.
OK, if pepper spray is not a viable less than lethal option, then the police will start using electrical devices to disrupt the nervous systems ability to function properly for an unknown period of time. Taser guns. Two metal projectiles (straightened fish hooks with barbs that normally are removed by emergency medical personell) with wires attached are fired by air pressure into the target subject, and a high voltage is pulsed each time the trigger is pulled, first for a few seconds, then longer, then longer, until the subject stops fighting, or until the batteries are dead. At least with chemical agent sprays, there is no need to break the skin, and can be washed off with water. Oh, I have a better idea! How about people don't fight the police, and there will likely be no level of less than lethal or lethal force used? Oh, wait. I'm sorry. I forgot. I live on Earth. Back to your regularly scheduled madness. Enjoy!
Obviously this report was a quick and dirty atttempt to get the police to stop using pepper spray by extreme left wing elements, who believe in their hearts the cops are always wrong and the criminals are always right. Sure, let's go ahead and ban pepper spray. Let's instead legalise Self Defense, and convert Kalifornia into a "Shall Issue" state for concealed carry handgun permits. With minimum .357 caliber allowed, to guarantee "effectiveness" and "officer safety" that the Bezerklians seem so interested in.
U R A IDIOT
I SUGGEST CARRYING FOX 5.3 OC SPRAY, IT IS EFFECTIVE AGAINST DRUGEE'S. DO NOT CARRY TEAR GAS SPRAYS SINCE THEY SOMETIMES FAIL AGAINST DRUGEE'S. AND SINCE MOST BLACKS ARE ALWAYS ON SOME TYPE OF DRUGS THE OC WILL WORK BETTER! BE SAFE AND STAY OUT OF BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS!!
Copy of a request sent to departments where media has reported injury of death resulting from failure of pepper spray to control during the arrest process. Dear Chief @#$%^&, To aid in the completion of a three year survey of departmental pepper spray use , will you please let me know the name of your issue pepper spray. Information source held confidential if desired. Any benefits from publication will be donated to the families of officers injured or killed by the failure of any pepper spray brands to control subjects during the arrest process. Respectfully yours, Gardner L. Whitcomb, Originator of Pepper Spray for Law Enforcement IACP associate member #423947 (For identification use only)
Air taser's work best on crack head's.
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